“It’s Deeply Personal” – “Wake Up Dead Man: A Knives Out Mystery” Writer/Director Rian Johnson on How His Religious Upbringing Influenced the Film  

Wake Up Dead Man: A Knives Out Mystery is the third entry in the popular Knives Out film series from writer/director Rian Johnson (Star Wars: The Last Jedi, Looper). Available on Netflix on December 12, the film centers on a religious murder. It explores both the pride and corruption of religion and the beauty and grace of faithful Christians.     

The creation of the film was a deeply personal journey for director Rian Johnson. He spoke with The Collision about how his religious upbringing influenced the story, why an authentic depiction of faith was important to him, and why he believes the film’s themes are both timely and timeless.    

(Note: This interview has been edited for length and clarity. Watch the full conversation above.)     

Daniel Blackaby: Where do you find ideas for your next Knives Out movie? What is the genesis of that creative process?   

Rian Johnson: It starts with looking internally. I started out wanting to make this one personal, so that’s why it’s about faith. I grew up evangelical Protestant. Through my childhood, teenage years, and early twenties, I was personally very deeply Christian.  

I was a youth group kid. I’m not a Christian anymore, so it’s something that I have a lot of feelings about. That was the starting point for me, using this film as an opportunity to have a multifaceted conversation with myself about this thing that’s very deeply personal. Can I do that in the context of a fun Benoit Blanc mystery? It’s a challenge.   

Blackaby: There is a reference in this film to Father Brown, the detective in G.K. Chesterton’s Catholic mystery stories. Have those stories influenced you in any way?   

Johnson: I reread them before I wrote this script. They were a huge influence. I love the Father Brown mysteries. I guess one of the big things I drew from them was that Father Brown is a great detective not because he understands the holy and the perfect but because he understands the imperfect. I’d highly recommend [the Father Brown stories] if you like murder mysteries. They wrestle with moral issues, which makes them fun.   

Blackaby: You said you were raised in a religious household. How did that influence the story? Were there any particular experiences from your childhood, positive or negative, that you wanted to portray in this story?   

Johnson: There are so many. During specific years—teenage into young man—my relationship with Christ was the lens through which I saw the entire world. Even though I’m not a believer now, that’s always there in some shape or form.   

There’s a scene in the movie where Benoit Blanc, Daniel Craig’s detective, first enters the story. He and Father Jud, Josh O’Connor’s character, have a conversation in the church about faith. Blanc, who is an atheist and very cynical about the church, gets uncomfortable in the church setting. He unleashes a little tirade against the church. Then Father Judd answers him in a way that truly answers him. Suddenly, they’re meeting as equals. For me, that scene was important. It’s not that I identify with one side or the other. I have both of those people inside me. This movie is kind of an opportunity to have both of those sides that are always present inside me start talking.   

All of us to a certain extent, even me when I was a Christian, have some version of those two kinds of dialogue inside.  

Blackaby: A lot of religious people have expressed that this is one of the most authentic depictions of faith they’ve seen in a movie for a long time. How important was it to you to be authentic, and how did you ensure that level of respect?   

Johnson: It was tremendously important to me. I don’t think I would’ve attempted it if it hadn’t come from my own personal experience. That’s also the answer to the second part of your question. How did I make sure [the film] wasn’t just trading in cheap stereotypes or finger wagging in either direction? I have experienced it. I was a believer during such a formative time in my life. That bedrock doesn’t go away. Writing this movie was a deep, interesting experience, because I couldn’t write it from my perspective today. I had to put myself back in my perspective as a believer.  

Blackaby: One of the tensions in this film is the contrast between church leaders who adopt the role of “warrior” or “shepherd.” You see the contrast between the two priest characters, but it’s even more powerful within the character of Jud himself. Why do you think that theme is relevant, perhaps even in ways that transcend a religious context?  

Johnson: For me, that is the most timely element of the movie. It’s also the most timeless. I like what you said about the conflict being represented inside Jud. In that way, Wicks is prompting something that Jud is struggling against [internally]. That was my experience as a Christian. It’s not like there were different camps or pastors who were on the side of having the selfless love of Christ versus getting on war footing. I was getting doses of both.  

But the timeliness of it transcends even the world of the church. As someone in the secular world, I’m as guilty as anyone. I’m doomscrolling through my social feed and getting angry about the capital-T “Them” out there who are out to get me. The antidote is in the teachings of Christ: love your enemy. It’s something that unfortunately feels very timely.     

Blackaby: Another throughline throughout this film is the role of storytelling, either to deceive people or to guide them toward truth. How does that resonate with you as a storyteller?   

Johnson: That’s also the connective tissue between my life now and who I was when I was a believer. When I say stories, that can imply that they’re just little lies that are made up to make us feel good. It’s the opposite of that. To me, [stories] are deeply and profoundly true, and I love that Jud gets to express that in the movie. Jesus taught through stories. Something about stories helps open our heart. [They can] communicate truth in a way a lesson or a sermon maybe couldn’t.  

Blackaby: Obviously, you want to entertain people. But is there anything else you hope audiences take away from it? What makes a film a success?   

Johnson: Especially today, a secular movie talking about religion is sort of a third rail. But everybody has grown up and had some kind of experience with the church and with faith, and there’s so much to talk about. It’s deeply personal to each of us. The film doesn’t aim to teach a specific lesson. It would be didactic if it did. It aims to have a conversation. And if that conversation continues outside of the theater, that’s the most you can hope for with art.  

Blackaby: Thanks for taking the time to chat about this film.   

Johnson: Thanks, Daniel. I appreciate it.