Joel and Luke Smallbone from For King + Country Discuss Their Latest Documentary “No Turning Back”

Joel and Luke Smallbone have been making music in the band For King & Country for more than 20 years. Their family is full of creative talent. Their sister is popular Christian singer/songwriter Rebecca St. James, and their brother is film director Ben Smallbone. On November 23^rd, they released their newest documentary (directed by “Brother Ben,” as they call him) titled For King + Country: No Turning Back. It shows how God has had his hand on their lives from the beginning. Joel and Luke recently sat down with the Collision and a few other journalists for a round-table discussion.  

Read the transcript below.   

(Note: This interview has been edited for length and clarity. Watch the full conversation above.)   

Joel: The origins of the documentary started around the same time [as Unsung Hero]. In some ways, the documentary indicated a lot of the film. If you watch the first act of the documentary, it’s Unsung Hero. The documentary is kind of the sequel. [The documentary] was kind of an opportunity to peek behind the curtain at the struggle and the visceral bits, the illness and the ego and the issues we faced as a family and then the grace of God literally weaving the narrative together. The award does go to brother Ben [Smallbone], because he directed it and really championed piecing it together. He also caught a lot of that footage from 25 years ago with Rebecca [St. James].  

What do you think has turned young people away from God’s gaze? What do young people have their eyes fixed on instead of God?  

Luke: I think young people are asking the question, “Is God real?” This story is a bit of a peek backwards into the faithfulness of God through our story. It’s not lost on me that Jesus told stories while he was doing his ministry. [Those] stories were so powerful that they changed people’s lives. They changed people’s eternal destinations. That’s why I think it’s important to tell stories. When it comes to young people, I think they’re asking, “Hey, is God real?” The hope is that they can watch something like this and maybe it answers some of their questions.   

When you look back at your footage from when you were kids, what is your biggest takeaway?  

Joel: I wish I had skipped my boy  band era. There’s so many layers to that onion. It’s important to look back. It’s therapeutic to look back. But I think there are pieces for both of us, Rebecca as well, that are hard to look back [on]. I’ve had to fight with the would’ve, could’ve, should’ve of the past, which is not the best way to be human. But there is great, great, great gratitude. As opposed to the movie that was so positioned around Mom, Dad, Rebecca, and our family, what I love about this is that it shows that if it weren’t for this ensemble of incredible ragamuffins for three decades, there’s not a chance we would be on this Zoom today. I’m just enormously grateful. I want you to know this is not a story about Luke and me. This is a story about all of us coming together.  

Was there a single moment in the season of rejections where you wondered if you misunderstood God’s calling? What pulled you back into believing that there was no turning back?  

Luke: I think dreams are extremely fragile. Obviously, the documentary talks [about] my journey. God had given me gifts growing up, but I never thought of it being something I’d do for a living. When we started working together, I felt that if I didn’t really go all the way in, then if I failed, my excuse [could be], “Well, I never really tried that hard. I didn’t really go for it.” And then I could move onto something else. But I came to the conclusion that there was no way for this to make any sense unless I just went all the way in. I remember coming back from the studio one day and saying to my wife, “I need to see this through, right?” I knew what she would say, but sometimes you need a little bit of verifying. And she just said, “Luke, I think you’ve got to be able to see this all the way through, and when the door shuts, that’s when we close it down.” And that was enough for me to see it through.   

Proverbs 27:21 says, “A man is tested by his praise.” How do you handle both praise and criticism?   

Joel: I hope we handle praise with gratitude and acceptance but also deflection, understanding that it is an ensemble. As far as criticism, it’s our best friend. You don’t want to just have people go out and rip you a new one. But constructive, thoughtful, loving criticism is our best friend, because if we can’t take that, I don’t know how we could stay creatively, emotionally, and spiritually grounded. I have found that the moment people feel afraid to tell you what they really think about you is the moment you’ve lost one of life’s greatest gifts, which is people pouring back into you.  

While putting together this documentary, did you see God weaving the story together? 

Luke: I think the biggest thing was how rough it was to start off. You are like, “I remember that moment, and that sucked.”  

Joel: You don’t know you’re in the depths of despair when you’re in the depths of despair sometimes.   

Luke: What’s crazy is that it didn’t just suck for moments. It was years. I also think, for me personally, reflecting on that period of time when I was very, very sick, I have always just thought to myself, “I wasn’t really that sick. I don’t know if anyone was really that concerned.” And then I look back at those pictures. The reason there weren’t many pictures during that time is because I was so sick that nobody wanted to take any pictures. The last time I recall actually weighing myself I was 125 pounds. There’s a chance it was much lower than that. But that period of sickness was what inspired the next 2, 3, 4, 5 albums at some level. How many people do you know who live through cancer and then say, “I never want to get cancer again, but it was one of the greatest gifts that God gave me, because it changed my perspective”? That’s what sickness did for me. I’m going to use an exaggerated word here, but there was purpose behind the misery.  

When you reflect on your life, what’s the biggest thing you understand about God now that you didn’t at the beginning of your journey?  

Joel: My journey with Jesus has been this evolution of understanding and relationship. When you’re a teenager, you relate in a certain way. In your 20s, your dynamics with God continue to evolve. The more you learn, the less you know. The further I get, the more mysterious and profound God is. We grew up in a faith-filled family, which is rare in Australia. You can really easily take this idea of redemption and grace and love for granted, the fact that the people [Jesus] had dinner with and the people he called friends weren’t the creme de la creme. They were the scraps. I find a lot of grace in that for myself. I’m a bit of a perfectionist. The shame I feel when I’ve done the wrong thing is weighty. But the fact that there’s grace and goodness and this extreme love for people like me, it’s great to realize that and re-realize it.   

As you see how God has worked in your life, how does that come out in your music?  

Luke: I’m not a good enough songwriter to write songs about things I don’t care about, which is a blessing and a curse. I need the songs to feel like we’ve lived them. At the end of the day, I’m not very interested in just writing a song that’s going to get stuck in people’s head. I want to write a song that could impact somebody’s eternal destination. I often say you write songs about the highest highs and the lowest lows because no one really remembers the middle. My hope is that [the songs] have purpose and meaning.  

How has your relationship as brothers evolved through the highs and lows? How has your perspective on the importance of family relationships evolved?  

Joel: The good news is that when you go through the Bible, there are screwed up families every step of the way, yet God still chose to use these people. I feel privileged to be in this meshed, codependent mess of this family. I really feel God’s goodness. It’s messy and it’s hard and it’s beautiful. It’s been a real gift to collaborate, and you have to look at the fruit. My hope is that the fruit points people heavenward and toward each other.   

What advice would you have for teens and preteens?  

Luke: I would say, dream God-sized dreams. Don’t tell yourself all the reasons why you can’t do something. If you feel like God’s telling you that something’s going on, go and try it and see if it is of God. If it is, you’re well on your way to that God-sized dream. Always seek wisdom in everything you do. Try to find people that are wiser and smarter and ask them all the questions that you could ever ask. My oldest is 12 years old, so we’re coming into relationship things now. There’s this pressure to figure these things out quite young. There’s nothing wrong with being attracted to the girl that’s next to you in the classroom, but should you be going on exclusive dates at 14 or 15? Probably not. Should you befriend that person? 1,000%. Only date when you think there’s a great chance the person you’re spending time with could be your spouse. I think that’s a must, because otherwise there’s just too much hardship.  

Would you be a part of an alternative Super Bowl? Have you been approached?  

Luke: We have been approached, but that’s a tricky one. You get into a lot of politics. I think Joel and I probably view our concerts as their own little mini Super Bowls, so just come to one of those.   

Over the 20 years you’ve been a band, what’s a moment you can remember that was an undeniable God moment?  

Joel: This might be a bit backwards, and I might get my hand slapped for this one: Luke tearing his ACL in the first game of his junior year of high school.   

Luke: It was not obvious in the moment. 

Joel: Dad saw him being better at sports and a better singer and taller. But [tearing]  your ACL is a game changer for about 6 months. And there was just something that kind of reset the narrative, and it created a lot of empathy in me. We’re always so quick to attribute these sparkly, magical moments to God. Don’t get me wrong, he’s in those. But he’s also with the poor in spirit and those who are hurting. That was a hard moment that I saw turn for good, and it really set a course for both of our lives.  

What hope do you see in a Jesus revolution and revival?  

Luke: When I hear some of the stories I’m hearing, they’ve done all of the stuff and they feel worse. They find themselves more addicted. They find themselves more miserable. They’re looking for something as crazy as Jesus. And they try the blood of Jesus. It doesn’t instantly change their circumstances, but somehow it instantly changes their joy, their peace, what’s going on in their head. There’s got to be healing, but what I’m seeing is people leaving certain rooms hope filled. It’s a modern-day miracle. If you start following these people’s lives who are turning to Jesus, they have the most upsetting, tragic life stories, yet they leave feeling freedom. It’s miraculous. That’s the hope that we try to convey in our songs and in our lives.  

What’s the value in collaborating with other artists and are more collaborations on the horizon?  

Joel: I love collaboration. I feel like rubbing shoulders with people who think, act, look, and vote different from you is actually the spice of life. It’s really hard to hate people up close. Proximity is a beautiful thing. This era for us is different, because we’re looking at stepping into film a bit more. We’ve got a new project that we’re going to go back into the studio and keep finishing up. Without blowing our cover too much, I’ll tell you that I think you’ll find that when we do show up somewhere in a collaboration or with an actor, I think you’ll be like, “Huh, I didn’t see that one coming.” It’s the spice of life, and it’s been beautiful in our career. We hope to continue it.   

FOR KING + COUNTRY: NO TURNING BACK is available on Wonder Project’s subscription channel on Prime Video in the U.S.